a research question

I remember hearing about this case and remember reading about it.
If I’m able to find the link, I’ll post it here.

this is a question i have been wondering about for some time. I’m obviously italian and alot of people ask me if im puerto rican. my skin is darker than the average white persons but my grandparents are both really dark. alot of people say i’m not white but when i say that to some white people, they say im a lyer. I don’t really know about this. If anyone knows for sure, could u tell me?

4/6/2004 8:54:51 PM

Don’t buy the hype about Sicilians having an African and Arab heritage. That belief is based on race-politics and ignorance. Genetically, there’s no evidence for it. Take a look at this:
http://thephora.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=8717

You can find more scientific information about Italians, other southern Europeans, the origin of skin color, and many related topics on this website:

http://www.racialreality.shorturl.com/

Oh, and next time someone says you look Hispanic, remind them that ‘Hispanic’ isn’t a race, and that many Latin Americans are largely, if not entirely, of southern European descent. So rather, it’s the Hispanics who often look like you, not the other way around.

I am a Sicilian-CANADIAN and I feel verys trongly about my culture,
First of all, I am quite dark in colour (about the same as Jennifer Lopez) , despite the fact that I live in Canada, and I have thick, nearly black hair.

The first comment I want to make is on this whole “Hispanic” race issue. I agree with the person who said that Hispanic is NOT a race on its own, because this is TRUE. Latin Americans have CREATED a race for themselves simply because of the fact that they speak an identical language. However, I must DISAGREE with the same person who said that most Latinos are of Southern European decent…this is definitely NOT true. MANY latin american countries have a very large section of their population which is MESTIZO, which is a Southern European and Amerindian mix, making them of mixed culture.

As for Sicilians, we are all CAUCASOIDS due to our Skull Structure, but we most definitely are NOT completely White. The facts state that we have Arab (including North Africa), Greek, and Spanish blood running through our veins, but what ultimately makes us caucasoid is the fact that Arabs, Spaniards, and Greeks all have a similar skull structure that makes them CAUCASOID TOO.

Sicilians = Caucasoid
Sicilians ARE NOT WHITE

7/13/2004 4:43:53 PM

Someone said: “I’m obviously italian and a lot of people ask me if im puerto rican. ”
I am Puertorrican and a white one. There is a big miscoception about puertorricans and the rest of the “latinos”. I live in Florida and when I say that I am puertorrican the people usually say: “I though you were white”. Well… I am white. There are white puertorricans (from mostly spanish and also italians, corsicans, french…) black puertorricans and mulatto puertorricans. In fact white puertorricans are the mayority in Puerto Rico, if you don’t believe me either go to Puerto Rico (the country side of the island) or check the U.S. Census

http://www.census.gov/census2000/states/pr.html

7/24/2004 9:32:07 PM

I am 100% Sicilian and people always come up to me asking me if I’m Arabic! I’m darker than the average person, I don’t burn in the sun, and my hair is really dark, thick and wavy. I’ve gotten so many people speaking in foreign languages to me. Urdi, Hindi, Arabic, Spanish, you name it. On a side note, a lot of people don’t realize Sicilians tend to separate themselves from the other Italians. We are a whole different island with people who look, think, have different views on life, and act differently. Although, Sicilians can come in a variety of colors! My great great grandmother was blonde and blue eyed, but she had wonderful, wonderful tan skin like the rest of my family. Sicilian is actually a language far different than Italian! Assa binidica a tutti.

8/5/2004 1:55:50 PM

::: AUDRA DI FALCO SAID: “I am 100% Sicilian and people always come up to me asking me if I’m Arabic!”
No they don’t. Stop lying.

First of all, people don’t just come up to other people in the street and ask them if they’re a certain ethnicity. That’s lie number one.

Second of all, you might get asked if you’re Hispanic or Jewish, or something else that’s common and often looks Southern European, but not Arabic. That’s lie number two.

I might buy the “talking to you in other languages” part, if you were in some foreign country at the time, and really tanned because it was summer. But even that seems far fetched.

Who do you think you’re kidding?

::: LAU SAID: “Is it only Sicilians that have Arab, Greek, and Spanish blood in them or is it other Italians too.”

All Southern Italians are descended from Greeks and Romans. They don’t have any Arab or Spanish blood.

::: LAU SAID: “I’m really not dark skinned but I do have the dark hair and dark eyes and many people say that I have the peurto rican features.”

There’s no such thing as “Puerto Rican features.” Some PRs look white, some look Indian, some look black, and some look like different mixes.

I am of Sicilian and Italian decent.. what Mike said was infact wrong, people who are of other mixed races do come up and ask me all the time what i am because of my skin color.. it’s a minority thing, they tend to feel freely to discuss thing among one another, that they won’t discuss with caucassions.. people from all of southern italy are mixed with arab and northern african, not just Sicily.. it’s nice that you like to think South italy wasn’t, but in reality, it was.. The whole south was looked down upon from the north and hated, the north could care less about the people, and over time they eventually all became mixed.. what are you people talking about saying southern italians are of lighter complexion? I’ve never seen it.. and if you do, these peoples roots are obviously not from southern italy.. everyone from southern italy is of darker complexion, in other words.. put a few southern italians next to Tony Blair, George Bush, and William Clinton, and you can clearly see they are 2 different races of people.. what makes minorties are their culture, heritage, and most of all color.. it’s not a white color, and it’s not tan, it’s darker then that.. i’ve seen white people who tan, it’s nothing like how dark i can get..
“Second of all, you might get asked if you’re Hispanic or Jewish, or something else that’s common and often looks Southern European, but not Arabic. That’s lie number two.”

are you serious? everybody and their mother knows italians are arabic.. i mean you people can go on every statistic you find, in any book you wanna look.. but the fact is, most of them are bullshit, and you have to compare by facial features to get the real ancestry.. who do these people look like most? i definately don’t think it would be the WASPs.. if you do, then you need to stop smoking crack..

“All Southern Italians are descended from Greeks and Romans. They don’t have any Arab or Spanish blood.”

if anything italians have more arab in them, then spanish or anything else.. although there is a good amount of spanish, the arabic is dominant and more so in the blood then anything else.. the north west african blood is also present to..

8/28/2004 3:25:07 PM

Mike, you’re wrong about that, b/c people ask me all the time, “What are you?” Or they immediately assume that I’m Cuban, Dominican, whatever, & start talking to me in a foreign language (English is my only language). Complete strangers. I have pale skin, dark hair, dark eyes, delicate features that bewilder many people…why, I could be just about anything! My nationality is 100% American, but I am multiracial: Jamaican/Carribean, Black, Scottish, Finnish, Swiss, Syrian. So it isn’t a lie, it does happen to some folks. I wonder what ethnicity/nationality you identify with, since you claim that Audra is lying. You haven’t presented any facts to back up what you said. I tend to believe her statement, b/c it is certainly true that Sicilians come in a variety of colors & looks…just like “whites”, “blacks”, etc.
Wendell, you said you are a “white Puerto Rican.” I’m not saying this to offend anyone, however Latin people are not white people, per se. Most are actually a mixture of races. Someone here was correct in saying that Latins run the gamut from being white in appearance (most likely those with roots in Spain, since that is part of Europe), to being black or mixed with the blood of Arabic people & natives. I live in Miami, where there is an overwhelming population of Cubans & Puerto Ricans who consider themselves to be 100% white. This is incorrect, as very few of them have European blood in their veins. They are mostly mixed with African, Arabic, or Native American. There are a few with French & Spanish backgrounds. And on another note, most American whites do not think of these people as “white” either…they simply think of them as being “non-white” or “Hispanic.”

Lee, I’m with you. Much of what you said was logical & fair. Italian-Guy, there is some truth to what you said. MOST southern Italians tend to have a swarthy olive skin & curly hair, however it doesn’t hold true for all. There are a few rare types with light skin & eyes. Blondes are very rare in that part of Italy, but there are a few. From what I’ve read, some Italians are descendants of Greeks & Romans, while others are descendants of the Moors. The Moors were also a mixed people: Northern African & Arabic. They had bronzed skin & darker coloring. So that might explain the difference in coloring in some Italians & Sicilians. I don’t know about Spanish people being the same as Italians, but since Spain & Italy are both in Europe, maybe there was some interbreeding.

This is an interesting subject worth looking into, but as a few people here said, there are no pure races left in the world today. There is a lot of interbreeding, so people cannot really label one another anymore (which is good!), try as they might. I couldn’t tell you the last time I saw a genuine blue-eyed blonde with pale skin here in the United States, maybe not since the late 1980’s. Different looks are cropping up everywhere. People just need to chill out & accept diversity.

8/31/2004 14:16

ok when will one of yall sicilians or southern italians just admit u have some african blood in u. its a reason why u have olive skin, dark hair, dark eye,etc. And stop referring North Africa as if black ppl don’t still live there! Arabs there too, but its still black africans and black arabs and full blooded arabs there. but some of yall are dark then some of the arabs…hum… remember hannibal was a nubian. who conquer italy for 15 years, so think about this. he brought he family up there, his men his troops, his troops women, and mingle with the native italians. just admit to it be proud of your african blood. i mean my great-great grandfather is white ass snow. an irish man. but if u look at me u would never know that. because i’m dark as Wesley snipes, the actor. and if u don’t know who he is…ok me and Micheal Jordan have the same complexion. And majority of black ppl in america is the same way…having white blood in us and/or indian. but we dont boast it around the world as much and let ppl know due to the fact …we still black REGARDLESS…thats what yall see…and thats the way it is. Am i ashame of my irish heritage…NO! or having white blood NO! But its messed up when the tables are turn. when a white person have black blood in them they scared to tell the world for whatever reason. I went to school with an italian, who look very dark to be classified as a white man, but anyway one day we was talking about race and he told me “Italians aint nothing but black people turn inside out.” He know his roots and not ashame of it and so should you all!!! When yall came over here, the “white people” didn’t consider yall “white people”. they call you all “degos” i dont know if i’m spelling it right but thats just like calling a black person a nigger! and in Italy, northern italians joke with southern italians because they have “african blood”. thats just like a dark skin black person, joking with a light skin black person, saying ” oh you got white blood in you” in conclusion…lol…SAY IT LOUD, U GOT BLACK BLOOD IN YOU AND BE PROUD!

9/4/2004 2:45:35 AM

Hi, I am Zachary. I was reading the messages on this website. I myself am half Italian (proud of it by the way). I consider Italians, and Sicilians the same thing. So, if I say Italians, I am also reffering to Sicilians.
I don’t know if anyone will agree, or disagree. But, this is my opinion. I had no idea that there were these many multiethnic comments, and topics, and all kinds of things about Italians. I also think it’s kind of rediculous. But, here are my opinions about Italians.

The truth is, a very big majority of Italians have darker eyes, darker hair, and darker skin than most other white people. And, believe me I have several black people ask me if I am black. But, because, I don’t really look black I say no. I look more Puerto Rican than anything. My mother is 100% Italian.

And, my mother does look like a medium skinned African American. If you didn’t know my mom, you would think she was half black. At least right now. Because, in the winter she gets slightly lighter in skin. But, that kind of stuff is really typical of all Italians.

Because Sicily is just right south of Italy, Sicily has always been like a crossroad althroughtout history for foriegn people to come into Italy. And many Aricans, Arabs, and Greeks did come into both Italy, and Sicily to make thier own dwellings. And, that is highly evident in Sicily’s physical features. There are so many locations in Sicily that have so many left behind influences of multicultural traces. And, the Sicilian dialect of Italian itself has slight traces of Arab in it.

I’d say Italians have a mix of mainly African, and Greek. While Sicilians have a mix of both of those plus Arab. There might be slight traces of Arab blood on Italian DNA. But, I am not sure. Now, I saw an article that said Italians have Spanish blood.

I’ve never ever heard of that before. That sounds very unlikely. But, I do believe Italians do have African in them. And, as a half Italian kid, I myself have never taken on a full “white” identity. There is a French kid in my class.

In the summer time, I look nearly 3 times darker than him. Now, in the summer time, I do burn because I am only half Italian. But, I only burn once. After that, it’s all stricktly tanning for me. I have other “Caucasion” frineds who either burn half the summer time, or never tan at all.

Also, I have very dark, and very bushy eyebrows. My eyebrows are probably just slightly thinner than Saddam Huseins eyebrows. And, if I don’t do anything, I’ll also grow a unibrow. Now, you all are probably thinking what does this have to do with the topic. Well, this is why I brought it up.

If you study males closely, 95% of the men worldwide who tend to have bushy eyebrows, and grow unibrows are Latin American, and middle eastern men (no specific for Latin American men, but of the middle eastern men Arabian, Arabic, Jewish, ETC). They are the main men who tend to have bushy eyebrows, and grow unibrows. Most of them are all non-white. And, noone can say I am wrong. Because, it’s obvious.

Well, if I am all white, expalin to me why I have bushy eyebrows, and grow a unibrow? It isn’t because I am German, or French, or Dutch, or English. Italian is the only thing I have in me that the country lies that close to Africa, and the middle east. If you could see me, I think I am 25% good enough proof that Italians do in fact have both African, and middle eastern ancestry in them. So, in conclusion, everything I’ve studied in the past…

And, all the stuff I’ve read, and all the different opinions of people… I would say that it is a fact to say that most, or all Italians are only 25, to 50% white. Because, for us Italians… we do have features, and characteristics in us, and in our blood, and DNA that make us well separated from ever being fully white.

9/5/2004 4:21:09 PM

I am writing to mention the Black Madonnas of the world including Our Lady of Tindari, located in the northeastern region of Italy. It is amazing to know that so many of these black madonnas have been found from Mexico to Italy! What does this mean? It means that there are African influences throughout the world. I am black Cuban, Puerto Rican and Swedish. Even amongst my fellow latinos there is racism. There are different shades of skin,ranging from snow white to the bluest-black. Historically speaking latinos are comprised of a mix of indian, african, and spaniard influences. Genetics plays a role, a sort of lotto, as to which physical traits will be expressed and which ones will not. In my research of Italy, I have discovered that there is sufficient evidence to determine Sicilians to be racially diverse. Africa is Africa–the dark continent, no matter which country, including Egypt. Many of the features consistent in many of the Sicilian people, bronze coloring, thicker-textured hair, and broader features can be traced to the African(Arab)conquests brought about by Hamilcar and the Moors in southern Italy. I have read countless accounts of history, especially concerning race, and there seems to be a preponderance of denial on the part of many white historians. Do not believe something because it is convenient for you. It is what it is. I also suggest to you, the readers to research sickle cell anemia within the Sicilian population. The sickled blood cell originated in Africa as a form of protection for the indigenous people against malaria (typically found in tropical regions). What is the connection? Genes–we share in the same gene pool as those who have this trait or disease. You see, not only is there constructed historical research to support African lineage within Sicilians, there is also genetic evidence. Africa, though stricken with poverty and sickness in some countries, is an absolutely beautiful and rich continent. There is such a lushness in culture-music, dance, customs, religion. What is there not to like about it? This “dark” continent is home to copious sources of diamonds, oil, and gold. The indigenous people are beautiful shades of brown, rich in melanin and diversity. I say all this to say that selected, powerful individuals with control in writing history and related literature have determined Africa and blackness to be bad because of their fear of what is different and unfamiliar. Instead of taking time to understand and tolerate differences, historians poisoned the public/society with lies that black is abominable. Think about it–black-listed, black-balled, black-market, black plague, black-mailed, black angel, black death, etc…These words all have negative connotations with foreboding, dark, evil consequences.
Sicilian people are beautiful, rich in cultural diversity which should be embraced. I think Sicilian men are extremely handsome with such a deep coloring and represent such a wealth in diversity. If you are Sicilian, please do additional research. Be bold enough to truthfully know your history. And don’t be made to feel inadequate because of your background. You are truly blessed culturally and spiritually.

i know this is off the subject butPUNCH JUDY:
AUGUST 31 COMMENT you said there is no such thing called a white latino. So is there a such thing called a black latino? Pele’ the soccer player from brazil know he is latino, but will be quick to tell u how pride he is to be a black man. by the way look up argentina history. u’ll find WHITE people living there blonde hair, blue eyes. yeah they came from germany and settle there in the 1800’s but they white. having they on communities. and nooo i never been to argentina but my spanish teacher from h/s told me this. and yes she’s white. And thats true some puerto rican and cubans claim to be white. cuz they are “white-latinos”. I give u an example Ricky Martin the singer is a white-latino. In the United States he’ll be a “latino”. but in puerto rico he’ll be a “white latino”. That one singer Shakira i don’t know if u know her but she is a pop singer from columbia. she will fall in the same category.

9/6/2004 6:05:47 AM

>>> The main reasons why Italians have dark skin, eyes, and hair is because of Italy’s location, and because of the mixing of blood they have.
Nope. It’s all evolution and natural variation, as I explained above. Italians don’t have mixed blood:

http://www.angeltowns.com/members/racialreal/italians.html
http://www.angeltowns.com/members/racialreal/sicily.html

>>> Nor did I say that other Europeans didn’t have bushy eyebrows.

You implied that bushy eyebrows came from mixing with Arabs and Africans. They don’t.

>>> In the summer, I do get dark enough to be mistaken for either a light skinned black, or a Puerto Rican.

Yes, that process is called tanning, and it has absolutely nothing to do with racial ancestry:

http://www.angeltowns.com/members/racialreal/skincolor.html

>>> Her hair is what makes her look more Arab than anything

There’s no such thing as “Arab hair.” Arabs can have straight, wavy or curly hair just like Europeans. And Europeans can have dark hair just like Arabs.

>>> she dressed like a Muslim, always putting that little robe over her head, and face.

Those are known as head scarves, and they’re worn throughout Europe, mainly by peasants, from Russia to Germany to Italy. Or perhaps it was a black veil and the character was supposed to be in mourning. Either way, it obviously wasn’t “Muslim”. A Christian woman wouldn’t dress like a Muslim.

>>> I can truthfully say I do know what I am talking about

When you’re able to back up your assertions with hard evidence, then you can brag about knowing what you’re talking about. But until then…sorry.

First, the concepts of “whiteness” and “blackness” are socio-political concepts having absolutely no scientific validity. If an anthropologist were to comment on this, she’d say that the skin of human beings ranges in a continuous spectrum from very dark (generally in geographical areas bordering the equator) to very light or no melanism (albino) (generally in geographical areas to the far north). Most likely, skin tone reflects genetic changes to the exposure to ultraviolet (UV) light striking the earth’s surface. Darker pigmentation is more suitable as protection against increased amounts of UV light which generally occur in the the regions bordering the equator, whereas in the far north little UV light reaches the surface so lack of melanin in the skin improves absorption of the little UV radiation available (necessary for Vitamin D production).
Re skin color, one should be proud of whatever skin color one has. Scientifically, there is remarkably little variation between human DNA regardless of what human is taken from a random sample of any human population. In fact, if you want to be humble about the whole thing, human DNA and chimpanzee DNA differs by only about 2.5% of the entire genome. Put another way, genetically 97.5% of “us” is the same as found in a chimp!

italians are not part black…
Please remember that even if northern africans did went into sicily, they were white!

Northern africa is allmoust white!
some tribes are WHITE!
believe it or not!

And if they did went there, they were not that much people invading sicily from north africa!

Hispanics is another misconceptions!
hispanics are not a race…
there are indians hispanics, White hispanics and mulattos hispanics.
If you think that latin or hispanic is a race…then you must be all crazy!

9/11/2004 9:16:26 PM

People ask me if im morrocan, pr, or mid eastern lots of times! yet im full blooded southern catanian! 1st generation american! i been poisting pics of very ambiguos south italians and sicilians for a very long time! and oh greco-roman thats rm medhammer he thinks basques and sicilians are the same race! when infact basques are more purely european then sicilians! sicilians are mixed greek, arab, moorish berber, some african, some norman lombard, sicani, siculy, and elymi! some sicilians look whiter then others and others look more ambiguos to non white then others! we are mixed period! i dont consider myself white i look totally differnt from white people(north and central europeans) Ciao

9/12/2004 12:48:47 AM

sicilians and southern italians are not white, they’re terrons more info on my web site http://morellopoli.tripod.com

9/12/2004 5:40:11 AM

‘Antonino Morello’ writes:
>>> People ask me if im morrocan, pr, or mid eastern lots of times!

That’s because he probably is all of those things. Anyone who knows him at all knows that he has zero credibility. Here’s just a sampling of his dishonesty and ignorance:

http://www.haloscan.com/comments/racialreality/109411786355013004#23469

And his friend ‘honorable Boso’ is no different. The photos on his site are carefully selected (mostly by ‘Morello’), but he couldn’t find enough “nonwhite” southern Italians to make his “point”, so he uses mainly people who are indistinguishable from northern Italians, as well as a few who aren’t even Italian. Also, his statistics on the southern Italian economy are outdated and inaccurate:

http://racialreality.blogspot.com/2004/08/southern-italian-economy.html

Neither of those two are to be trusted or taken seriously.

my datas about terrons are official statistics from italian and european institutions: eurostat ( http://europa.eu.int/comm/eurostat/ ) ,istat ( http://www.istat.it ) and censis ( http://www.censis.it ), merdhammer-racialmyths only uses selected quotes from unreliable sources
http://morellopoli.tripod.com

9/12/2004 10:32:56 AM

Greco-Roman,
Let’s just end this. I am not like Morello. He may be a nice guy (to me), but he can get annoying sometimes. This thread has gone down the drain because of stupid, insipid bickering like this which goes back and forth.

You may not agree with me, but this is how I feel. I think that, in this day and age, NO ONE is of a ‘pure’ race anymore, so this fight is just stupid. It still boggles my mind how you would ever be able to explain Sicily being occupied by various people for thousands upon thousands of years, yet the population remiained ‘pure’. Nevertheless, I’ll say it again: I don’t think in this day and age, that anyone is of ‘pure’ blood, however politically incorrect it may be. We are all human. We should celebrate our differences, not argue over them. You have your beliefs and I have mine, and that’s that. Truce.

PS- Don’t compare me to Morello. He and I are NOTHING alike.

9/13/2004 7:39:35 PM

I am also 100% Siciliano. My family on both sides came from Palermo and corleone. My families landed in New York and New Orleans and we now live in Texas. Living in Texas many people always ask me if I’m Mexican. People speak spanish to me all the time. I have no problem with this, while I also have no problem admitting our culture has arabic blood in it because it is true. Read any historic documentation and you’ll see. The ancient Etruscans were arabic and Greek. I had a physical last year and my iron came up low. They retested me and find out I have thalassemia minor. This is not dangerous, but I found it very interesting when my arabic physician informed be that this is a very common trait among all arabics and many Sicilians. Read into this what you may. buona notte, Siciliano numero uno.

9/17/2004 12:11:11 AM

@ Consoli
>>> The ancient Etruscans were arabic and Greek.

That absurd statement alone discredits your views on the subject of Sicilian origins. Etruscans predated Arabs by more than 1000 years, and they never even spread as far south as Sicily.

@

I always thought Moors were ‘black’….? At leat that’s what books tell you! Weren’t Moors African slaves to the Spaniards at one time?

9/17/2004 4:16:36 PM

@greco
So what are you saying? you are willing to except that we have middle Eastern blood running through our veins but not arabic? –Have you even researched thalassemia minor? I have read every one of your posts in this forum, its obvious you think

9/19/2004 1:51:32 AM

@ Consoli

>>> So what are you saying? you are willing to except that we have middle Eastern blood running through our veins but not arabic?

Why don’t you actually read and try to understand what I wrote about ancient Anatolia, instead of asking du

>>> To me it sounds like we might be splittting hairs a bit when it comes to the origin of Turkish, middle Eastern and Arab blood.
Not at all. Arabs and Turks are historical groups with specific origins in Arabia and Central Asia. ‘Middle Eastern’ encompasses a broader geographical and temporal range but is used by most as a synonym for ‘Arabs and Turks’ (that’s how you’ve been using it). The only “Middle Eastern” blood that Europeans have comes from prehistoric settlements. Read this:

http://www.angeltowns.com/members/racialreal/neolithic.html

>>> However I still have a little trouble with Thalassemia trait. I believe this trait was passed on to our people from anyone of the arab/middle eastern/turkish-Anatolian ancestors.

Thalassemia dates back to prehistory (see above). How could Arabs or Turks have transmitted the trait to Southern Europe when it’s been present there since the Mesolithic period?

@Greco
I finally read all of your documentation from Angel town. It was very intersting. If that website is indeed factual then everything you have said to this point is true. I owe you an apology–by the way the Italian Festival of Houston is coming

9/21/2004 9:27:31 AM

“south euros” like greco-roman are all wanabee pure euros! they wish they had pink lilly white skins and blonde hairs and blue eyes and they wish they looked north european! why? because north euros are the purest whites europeans!! so they wish they can be pure white european like they are! so when a study finds negro genes in say… portugese or finds berber blood they deny it and try to find mongoloid dna in north europe to make themselves “whiter” then them! the main fact is that north euros are the EPITOME of whitness or europeaness no matter which fuking way yu cut it!! hallstatt nordics and ups are as ultra european as it gets! so no matter how fuking hard rm, alex, and the other paranoid insecure south euros try ! they try as they may they still cant be the same as a real truely pure european( a north euro)! so just accept the fact that you guys will never look like a true white! irish swedes russians poles dutch danes and scotsmen are all 10 times more european looking then south europeans! south europeans can pass for north africans and mid easterns plenty of times! the same cant be said for north euros! so yu can try to be white or pass as white ! but the fact remains……………. north euros will always be much much much whiter and much more ultra european looking then you ! this is why i post here! because i dont want south europeans to be the same race as north euros! they are more similar to north africans then to north euros! 2 eyes can tell you this! nick turturro and enrico lo verso can pass for non european not north european! but north europeans almost always look white and very white! and never look ambiguos(only in the most rare cases) so sorry to break it to you but you guys will never be pure white! stop trying so hard! accept your exoctic strains!! and dont whitewash north africans and arabs just cause you guys have arab and moorish strains! arabs and berbers are NON EUROPEANS NON WHITE! ONLY A FEW LOOK WHITE! once yu realize that your not purely european yu can feel much better! cause when its too white then it aint right! when something looks too european it looks ugly (hallstatts and ups are prime examples of this) LOL! just accept that your south europeans can look ambiguos white and non white! but never purely all white like north euros! thats all

9/22/2004 8:54:32 PM

Hi All,
Im an englishman and i have dark brown hair and eyes as a large number of north euros do. I am an anthropology major and it may be a suprise but the white race does not really exist. There are only 5 racial groups and under that there are ethnic subgroups. They are caucasoid, negroid, australasoid, americanoid, and mongoloid. Each group has variances in skin tone, negroids vary from light brown to deep blackish brown, mongoloids vary from pasty snow white to chocolate brown, and similarly caucasians vary from pasty ruddy to very swarthy, etc..
There are variances in hair and eyes tones amongst all racial types innuit indians and mongolians have been know to possess very light blue-brown eyes, whilst possessing no racial admixture, and merely melanin adaptations to climate. Darker skins will gradually fade lighter in darker climates and lighter skin will darken over time in warmer climates.
Ultimately it is inaccurate to determine an ethnic background on skin tone alone. Autopsys in the past have resulted in false assumptions like in the IRA kennedy case where a man was ethnically selected as spanish but was actually an irish man, therefore the only definative way was to use facial structure and skull structure to make accurate conclusions. It is a common mistake that people associate curly or even wavy hair with negroid blood traits, however it has no bearing on whether someone is caucasian or otherwise. Facts my fellow posters will always triumph, racial propaganda is prevalent in history, from the creation of a jewish race to north africans claiming to be of arabic descent to mexicans claiming to be of iberian spanish origin. Lies and propaganda perpetuated throughout the ages will never count for scientific fact. That is why most governments are learning that all caucasians can be considered white and that all negroids can be considered black.

Conclusion and Definitive outcome;

Main Entry: Cau·ca·sian
Pronunciation: ‘ko-‘kA-zh&n, -‘kazh-&n
Function: adjective
1 : of or relating to the white race of humankind as classified according to physical features
2 : of or relating to the white race as defined by law specifically as composed of persons of European, No. African, or southwest Asian ancestry —Caucasian noun

Source: Merriam-Webster Medical Dictionary, © 2002 Merriam-Webster, Inc.

Ne·groid ( P ) Pronunciation Key (ngroid) Anthropology
adj.
Of or being a major human racial classification traditionally distinguished by physical characteristics such as brown to black pigmentation and often tightly curled hair and including peoples indigenous to sub-Saharan Africa.

source:The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

Mon·gol·oid ( P ) Pronunciation Key (mngg-loid, mn-)
adj.
Anthropology. Of or being a major human racial classification traditionally distinguished by physical characteristics such as yellowish-brown skin pigmentation, straight black hair, dark eyes with pronounced epicanthic folds, and prominent cheekbones and including peoples indigenous to central and eastern Asia.

Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

Aus·tra·loid ( P ) Pronunciation Key (ôstr-loid)
adj. Anthropology
Of or being a human racial classification traditionally distinguished by physical characteristics such as dark skin and dark curly hair, and including the Aboriginal peoples of Australia along with various peoples of southeast Asia, especially Melanesia and the Malay Archipelago.

Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

Native American Or Ameri.can.oid
n.
A member of any of the indigenous peoples of the Western Hemisphere.

Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

FACT, not Falsehood.

9/23/2004 3:30:16 PM

I meant what you have just said, that trying to create defined sub-groups of any kind of caucasian is and always will be flawed. Saying that all spaniards are swarthy is flawed, saying that all russian slavs have larger heads and cheekbones is flawed, saying that all arabs are dark haired is flawed. Autopsys currently do not use skin eye and hair tone to determine ethnicity as it is flawed. They only use one of the five proven racial classifications. Also some of the posts are highly misinformed or extremely ignorant, on modern day ‘arabs’ and ‘hispanics’, neither of which are considered as races or ethnicities to a large extent, but culturally, historically, and linguistically linked. Spaniards are from iberia and has been indigenously populated by caucasians, in the same way arabs are from the eastern mediterranean (specifically northern arabia and parts of the southern fertile crescent. The arabs were originally and still are caucasian. However with both of these cultures embarking historically on conquest their language, culture, and religious views were imposed on the conquered populations. Even taking into acount rapes and intermarrige the existing populations were largely unchanged and in caucasian cultures the changes were unnoticable. Recent tests of morrocans show that less than 10% of the populace share ethnic traits with the original eastern arabs, but show predominantly berber, vandal, and abyssinian (a negroid sub group). Likewise tests of mexican have showed little similarity between their historical Spanish conquerers. Historical research supports genetic testing in that invading armies of spaniards numbering a few thousand and arabic armies number a few thousand supported by large numbers of abyssinian conscripts (enslaved or converts to islam).
A great resource ive found on histories influences on race, culture, and etnicitiy can be found at http://www.whitehistory.com. I provides alot of supporting data, which is very improtant when making accurate assessments.

9/25/2004 11:27:27 AM

I am Sicilian American I frequently get mistaken for a mixed race hispanic or light black. I’m proud of my Siclian looks. This Greco-Roman guy needs to stop denying the mixed types of Sicilians. He’s probably a blond Siclian guy who doesn’t like to admit that some Sicilians are mixed race!

Thomas,
I am sorry ive made a mistake it seems as though that url is being used by the stormfront now, but was used by a post grad i met in London. It was a very good site before with lots of academic research. Please accept my apologies for this error and i meant no insult to you or anyone in this archive.
Oh by the way for anyone whos interested there are many examples of negro-caucasian mixes in almost every nation in europe, middle east, and north africa. Larger numbers in the nothern european nations now too and growing. Check out Soccer star Henrik Larsson a fair haired swedish-nigerian cross.

9/27/2004 8:56:48 PM

I just wanted to say that my previous post was not meant to offend anyone, so if it did, I’m sorry.

To Stephania,
Hi,

Just to clarify that Lebanese are arabic, but they also have phoenician ancestory too.
In addition you made a very good point about many asking if you are of various ethnicities, but the main line of these assessments are of various types of caucasians. I myself as an englishman have been asked in the past whilst on my travels if im italian, french, hungarian, swiss, arabic, portugese, croatian, etc..
And im an englishman with a traceable anglo-saxon line.
On the flip side if a negroid person went to sub saharan african countries they might be asked if theyre ugandan, sudanese, cameroon, zulu, swazi, etc…
Bottom line, in the current climate of globalisation humans are finding it necessary to group and sub group each other under the assumption that people will behave or look stereotypically.

10/2/2004 8:44:47 PM

Consoli,
Please do not show prejudice and contempt to my background as i do not show it to yours. I have come to sites like this because it is my area of study. And as a neutral person who is learning fact based information, as oposed to hear say, propaganda and random people’s poor ethnic assessments.
Sites such as these show a clearly misinformed and uneducated understanding of history and background. If a person says someone looks negro, it doesnt mean they are negro. It is the person that is mistaken, not facts that are mistaken.
If ten people say ‘oh this guy i met looks chinese’, but the guy is actually from Peru, does it make him chinese?
Finally you have not understood that arabic blood lines actually refer to people from the nothern arabian peninsula and the southern fertile cresent. Where sicily was invaded by north africans. North africans who had become arabic speaking because of conversion to the islamic faith. Because of this, modern day north africans possess a dialect and culture distint from their original arabian conquerers. So when you say you may have arabic blood lines you are incorrect, it would be berber and/or vandal or east african abyssinian traits.
You must understand that conquest doesnt mean anhilating the indigenous people or marrying each one of them, it is a central governmental power as opposed to a racial one. Most conquests number only a few thousand soldiers not a mass exodus of people to a new land. Think about it there were no cruise liners or passenger airlines or airports. Most people move for a reason, soldiers go for power, but civilians dont move for no reason. Please read some history books.

10/3/2004 10:21:47 PM

Like wise the same mistake is made when refering to people as ‘hispanics’. The following two links show the typical difference between the original iberian spanish person, and a latin american mexican.
This link shows prsident zapatero of spain, clear identifiable caucasian traits.

http://telva.elmundo.es/especiales/2002/07/espana/debate/images/zapatero01.jpg

This link shows a mexican woman, clear identifiable americanoid traits, or aztec more specifically.

http://www.msu.edu/~kalinow5/gallery1/images/mexican-woman.jpg

Conquest doesnt always result in replacement or mongrelising of the indigenous peoples.

10/3/2004 11:10:19 PM

–Anthropology major
I respect your opinion you seem to have done plenty of research.

–Frenchjoe

Why are you reading and posting if you are so much better than us. The majority of Americans have dark hair and dark eyes also. What the hell does that

10/8/2004 10:17:35 PM

Ive been to palermo, sicily and all of them are caucasian i did not see any negro there. Also its true that eastern arabs are caucasian, ive been to syria and israel, in america they could join one of your nazi groups, i mean they look totally white. In France there are many arabs and only the north africans look mixed. I noticed also above there was a post from a Saudi who is a ‘precious’ blonde you americans adore. Consoli, antonino proves my point about americans. Muslims from north africa ruled sicily, and back then muslims and arabs were the same thing, but today muslims are from so many different countries and cultures. Theres like over a billion muslims, and only 200 million arabic speakers, so use your brain.
I checked out those pictures above and anthromajor proves his point, but hes a british guy not an american, hmm. Suprise.

to the sicilians yes you have black genes it is evident.with all due respect to greco roman please quote a site other than racereality i been there.if you beleive one site as truth then look at all the other links where researchers prove that sicilians indeed have melanin in there skins.the moors were black/arab mixed.hannibal was a nubian.there has always been an attraction between blacks and italians this is evident with all the half black/half italians in america.italians arent punks so they would have been have ran the moors out of sicily if they werent loved.it took 400 years?come on.i love siciians and wouldnt have even got involved in this conversation if you didnt disrespect the moors by calling them white.hate to make this a race thing but white people dont even like sicilians they cll yall spagetti eating niggers…dagos.so why are you trying to be them so bad?(not to all of you just the wannabes)in louisiana they hung sicilians along with blacks.they didnt even claim yall in fact the only reason they claim yall now is because of the sensus.yall arent white.sicilians are some of the most beatiful people on earth but the hatred against blacks and your own melanin is misplaced.after all of your racialreality site research white people still dont want you.hope i didnt offend anyone but i cant sugarcoat it.peace to you all

I am Sicilian, who claims and excepts everything that I am mixed with. I myself, have medium brown skin, and black curly hair, just like the rest of my family. I do not consider myself white, and PROUD to say that. I am educated to the fullest about my ancestory and where I come from. Also, anyone who denies the BEAUTIFUL AFRICAN, and ARABIC culture that defines the Siciian/Southern Italian people should be ashamed! It just goes to show how IGNORANT people can be when it comes to race.

11/29/2004 2:29:44 AM

This is an interesting one. Well im Sicilian and I can name about 15 people who asked me if I am Puerto Rican. After I tell them that Im Sicilian they say “O you’re Sicilian, thats Italian, your white, wow, I thought you were Puerto Rican”.
Well the obvious truth is Sicilians arent italian, as a matter of face, EVERYONE IS DIFFERENT, even if they are both the same race/nationality. I dont know how many generations of humans have existed, im guessing around a few thousand maybe.

Over these thousands of generations people from all over the world have been mixing from traveling, trading, exploring ect… Race (and especially nationality) is nothing to me, and the most pathetic term I know is “White”. White???? First off nobody is “White” not even albinos are “White”, white is a color, not skin tone, paper is white. I dont know how they even thought of white as a race, o well.

Depending on what part of the world a group of humans were created at, has to do with how dark their skin color is. The closer to the equator, the darker. But due to mixing, dark and light people are all over. Places like Sicily and Puerto Rico has all different colored people nowadays, thats becaues MIXING. Sicily is very rich in resources, ive read that lots of people been there, like Greeks, Egyptions, North Africans, Spaniards, Italians, everyone (around that area). As for Puerto Rico, we all know whos been there, the native Puerto Ricans (Boricua), Spaniards, African slaves, mostly likely even more.

So what im trying to say is, the word “white” is very confusing and shouldnt even exist, people are people.

everyone is so quick to be white.i’m black with admixture (white),wasn’t proud of it because most white people were claiming anything they saw good in their eyes(light skin ,intellectual blah blah. i don’t care anymore, i feel secure within myself. i believe white people envy what other races have just as, but they would not admit it, because they want to keep the title of being so untouchable, more physically beautiful than oh and more superior. it’s all about attention and feeling like a god. being looked at as if you are so lucky to have what you have and that person is lacking. the subject is interesting but stupid at the same time. but it should had never been an issue, when people walk and talk and do everything as human, we’re all the same inside get over your insecurities or high horse. typical

I am 100% sicilian from Brooklyn and now live on Long Island. Ive read everyone on this site. Mike Vincenzo and g are all ignorant and time and time again the people on here dont back up what they are saying with evidence. Greco Roman coulnt`t be more right. Siclian people are white There was minimal mixing over the course of centuries. If you people really take the time and research it who`ll find the real genetic markers and genes in sicilian blood. I think Greco ROman has done a great job in trying to explain this to you people. Some people on thiss site are like wannabe arab, africans, its so sick. Nothing against these people but when people arent something and have this weird buring desire to be somthing there not. Im a history major and take much pride in my sicilian roots.Some of you people are real sick

Both my parents are Italian and I am proud of my heritage, but for every one wondering if we have someAfican in us the answer is yes we have but not just Italians, but every other nationality as well!
You see man first evolved in Africa about 400 million years ago, they were called “Homo Sapiens” and they
were the first thinking man that evolved from the ‘Homo erectus’ which were the first upright man, any other human like species before are not direct ancestors of modern humans. ‘Homo Sapiens’ fgssils have been found in Europe and Western As
and Western Asia. About 100,000 years ago a newer type of human the ‘Homo Sapiens Sapiens’ developed in
Africa and spread to other continents.

8/19/2005 9:51:53 AM

How many of you have been to Sicily?

Sicilians are descended from a mix of peoples, mostly white.
They look sort of Greek-Italian. They are most DEFINITELY white.

The Spanish are also white, but they have a stronger Moroccan influence – i.e. more Arabic.

If you’re Italian, and you get mistaken for a “non-white”, it’s probably because
1. You live in a sunny country, like.. hallo??
2. You live in a ‘new’ country, where very few have a clue which ethnicity matches which country. In old countries, it’s like always fun game to tell where a bunch of tourists comes from.

Comment by AARGH — 11/3/2005 @ 5:36 pm

hey i’m of spanish and Irish descent. am i considered white? please tell me its bugging me

Comment by Pat — 11/24/2005 @ 12:32 am

I also think ‘GrecoRoman’ is in denial or just plain ignorant as he has tried so hard to dney and wipe out any sign of an Arab presence in the genes of the people of Sicily, even tho they ruled it, does he seriously think all that time like 200years the ppl would not have mixed? are u that silly?

And for those who want to see some architecture in Spain and Sicily that came from the Arabs then chek the links

http://www.staff.uni-marburg.de/~wendrich/andalus/andalus218.jpg

http://www.spain.info/TurSpainWeb/Images/Recursos/V1norm/Reports/RE140527JPG.jpg

http://www.hytti.uku.fi/~jumykkan/files/alhambra.jpg

http://www.stat.duke.edu/~ervance/Greatphotos/SpainHK/0234-alhambra.jpg

http://www.travelaboutinc.com/images/30-Generalife%20Gardens,%20Alhambra,%20Grenada,%20Spain.jpg

http://tourdeuropeavelo.free.fr/Classes_fichiers/alhambra_fichiers/La%20Alhambra%20203.jpg

http://www.cp-pc.ca/english/portugal/images/port22.jpg – Portugal here

http://www.bestofsicily.com/mag/art168a.gif – Sicily here, do u see the ARABIC QURANIC writin

http://sights.seindal.dk/photo/61f.html

Comment by Omar — 11/26/2005 @ 12:51 am