a research question

From: Justin Moschetti

Dear editor of The Multiracial Activist:

I am a student at Southern Oregon University. I am doing research for a project about interracial marriage laws in the United States. I am of Sicilian descent, and I remember my mother telling me about how she vaguely recalls reading about a court case in America before interracial marriage laws were struck down. This case involved a couple that was being prosecuted for breaking the interracial marriage laws in their state. One of the spouse members was white and the other was black.

However, the white spouse was Sicilian and somehow was able to use the defense that Sicilian people have a rich ethnic heritage separate from other Italians, which includes African and Arab blood. Even though this ethnic mixing was slight, according to the one drop rule of that time the white spouse was considered black by the court.

My mother’s information about the case “who, what, where, when, etc.” ends there and for a long time I did not believe such a case was possible. However, I mentioned it to someone else once, and they too seemed to vaguely remember hearing that Sicilians were considered multi-ethnic because of the ethnic mixing throughout their history.

I have been searching the internet for any proof of such a case actually existing, but have so far found nothing. When I came upon your website I thought a group with your knowledge about interracial marriage laws and court battles might know what I am talking about.

I appreciate any information you could provide or suggestions of where to look for information. Thank you for your time.

Sincerely:
Justin Moschetti.

Editor: That’s one case I’m vague about on the details. Perhaps one of this blog’s readers will have that answer for Mr. Moschetti.

32 comments

  1. ARE ITALIANS WHITE?In Rollins v. Alabama (1922), as we have seen, a Sicilian woman was not deemed “white” enough by an Alabama court to legally prevent a “black” man from mating with her. Italians in Louisiana were also deemed unworthy of full “whiteness” and its privileges.

    Many Italians are quite swarthy, olive or even brown-skinned. This is not surprising, given Italy’s geographical closeness to Africa. In 1891 a “white” Louisiana mob lynched 11 Italians, What made Italians non-white in their eyes despite their immigration to the U.S. as “free white persons”? Jacobson says that Italians did not “act white” by Southern standards. They socialized freely with “blacks” and worked at “black” jobs. They also supported Republican and Populist political candidates. I would like to inquire as to whether many of these “blacks” were in fact mixed-race Creoles. Physically, Italians and Creoles are very similar. Culturally, they are both Roman Catholic and “Latin.” Since Jacobson says that Italians intermarried with “blacks,” I have to suggest that these mates were probably not “black” at all but Creole.

    From: Whiteness of a Different Color: European Immigrants and the Alchemy of Race by Matthew Frye Jacobson. Harvard University Press, 1998.

    http://www.webcom.com/intvoice/powell11.html

    3/5/2004 6:44:13 PM

  2. this is a question i have been wondering about for some time. I’m obviously italian and alot of people ask me if im puerto rican. my skin is darker than the average white persons but my grandparents are both really dark. alot of people say i’m not white but when i say that to some white people, they say im a lyer. I don’t really know about this. If anyone knows for sure, could u tell me?

    4/6/2004 8:54:51 PM

  3. I am a Sicilian-CANADIAN and I feel verys trongly about my culture,
    First of all, I am quite dark in colour (about the same as Jennifer Lopez) , despite the fact that I live in Canada, and I have thick, nearly black hair.

    The first comment I want to make is on this whole “Hispanic” race issue. I agree with the person who said that Hispanic is NOT a race on its own, because this is TRUE. Latin Americans have CREATED a race for themselves simply because of the fact that they speak an identical language. However, I must DISAGREE with the same person who said that most Latinos are of Southern European decent…this is definitely NOT true. MANY latin american countries have a very large section of their population which is MESTIZO, which is a Southern European and Amerindian mix, making them of mixed culture.

    As for Sicilians, we are all CAUCASOIDS due to our Skull Structure, but we most definitely are NOT completely White. The facts state that we have Arab (including North Africa), Greek, and Spanish blood running through our veins, but what ultimately makes us caucasoid is the fact that Arabs, Spaniards, and Greeks all have a similar skull structure that makes them CAUCASOID TOO.

    Sicilians = Caucasoid
    Sicilians ARE NOT WHITE

    7/13/2004 4:43:53 PM

  4. Someone said: “I’m obviously italian and a lot of people ask me if im puerto rican. ”
    I am Puertorrican and a white one. There is a big miscoception about puertorricans and the rest of the “latinos”. I live in Florida and when I say that I am puertorrican the people usually say: “I though you were white”. Well… I am white. There are white puertorricans (from mostly spanish and also italians, corsicans, french…) black puertorricans and mulatto puertorricans. In fact white puertorricans are the mayority in Puerto Rico, if you don’t believe me either go to Puerto Rico (the country side of the island) or check the U.S. Census

    http://www.census.gov/census2000/states/pr.html

    7/24/2004 9:32:07 PM

  5. I am 100% Sicilian and people always come up to me asking me if I’m Arabic! I’m darker than the average person, I don’t burn in the sun, and my hair is really dark, thick and wavy. I’ve gotten so many people speaking in foreign languages to me. Urdi, Hindi, Arabic, Spanish, you name it. On a side note, a lot of people don’t realize Sicilians tend to separate themselves from the other Italians. We are a whole different island with people who look, think, have different views on life, and act differently. Although, Sicilians can come in a variety of colors! My great great grandmother was blonde and blue eyed, but she had wonderful, wonderful tan skin like the rest of my family. Sicilian is actually a language far different than Italian! Assa binidica a tutti.

    8/5/2004 1:55:50 PM

  6. Mike, you’re wrong about that, b/c people ask me all the time, “What are you?” Or they immediately assume that I’m Cuban, Dominican, whatever, & start talking to me in a foreign language (English is my only language). Complete strangers. I have pale skin, dark hair, dark eyes, delicate features that bewilder many people…why, I could be just about anything! My nationality is 100% American, but I am multiracial: Jamaican/Carribean, Black, Scottish, Finnish, Swiss, Syrian. So it isn’t a lie, it does happen to some folks. I wonder what ethnicity/nationality you identify with, since you claim that Audra is lying. You haven’t presented any facts to back up what you said. I tend to believe her statement, b/c it is certainly true that Sicilians come in a variety of colors & looks…just like “whites”, “blacks”, etc.
    Wendell, you said you are a “white Puerto Rican.” I’m not saying this to offend anyone, however Latin people are not white people, per se. Most are actually a mixture of races. Someone here was correct in saying that Latins run the gamut from being white in appearance (most likely those with roots in Spain, since that is part of Europe), to being black or mixed with the blood of Arabic people & natives. I live in Miami, where there is an overwhelming population of Cubans & Puerto Ricans who consider themselves to be 100% white. This is incorrect, as very few of them have European blood in their veins. They are mostly mixed with African, Arabic, or Native American. There are a few with French & Spanish backgrounds. And on another note, most American whites do not think of these people as “white” either…they simply think of them as being “non-white” or “Hispanic.”

    Lee, I’m with you. Much of what you said was logical & fair. Italian-Guy, there is some truth to what you said. MOST southern Italians tend to have a swarthy olive skin & curly hair, however it doesn’t hold true for all. There are a few rare types with light skin & eyes. Blondes are very rare in that part of Italy, but there are a few. From what I’ve read, some Italians are descendants of Greeks & Romans, while others are descendants of the Moors. The Moors were also a mixed people: Northern African & Arabic. They had bronzed skin & darker coloring. So that might explain the difference in coloring in some Italians & Sicilians. I don’t know about Spanish people being the same as Italians, but since Spain & Italy are both in Europe, maybe there was some interbreeding.

    This is an interesting subject worth looking into, but as a few people here said, there are no pure races left in the world today. There is a lot of interbreeding, so people cannot really label one another anymore (which is good!), try as they might. I couldn’t tell you the last time I saw a genuine blue-eyed blonde with pale skin here in the United States, maybe not since the late 1980’s. Different looks are cropping up everywhere. People just need to chill out & accept diversity.

    8/31/2004 14:16

  7. ok when will one of yall sicilians or southern italians just admit u have some african blood in u. its a reason why u have olive skin, dark hair, dark eye,etc. And stop referring North Africa as if black ppl don’t still live there! Arabs there too, but its still black africans and black arabs and full blooded arabs there. but some of yall are dark then some of the arabs…hum… remember hannibal was a nubian. who conquer italy for 15 years, so think about this. he brought he family up there, his men his troops, his troops women, and mingle with the native italians. just admit to it be proud of your african blood. i mean my great-great grandfather is white ass snow. an irish man. but if u look at me u would never know that. because i’m dark as Wesley snipes, the actor. and if u don’t know who he is…ok me and Micheal Jordan have the same complexion. And majority of black ppl in america is the same way…having white blood in us and/or indian. but we dont boast it around the world as much and let ppl know due to the fact …we still black REGARDLESS…thats what yall see…and thats the way it is. Am i ashame of my irish heritage…NO! or having white blood NO! But its messed up when the tables are turn. when a white person have black blood in them they scared to tell the world for whatever reason. I went to school with an italian, who look very dark to be classified as a white man, but anyway one day we was talking about race and he told me “Italians aint nothing but black people turn inside out.” He know his roots and not ashame of it and so should you all!!! When yall came over here, the “white people” didn’t consider yall “white people”. they call you all “degos” i dont know if i’m spelling it right but thats just like calling a black person a nigger! and in Italy, northern italians joke with southern italians because they have “african blood”. thats just like a dark skin black person, joking with a light skin black person, saying ” oh you got white blood in you” in conclusion…lol…SAY IT LOUD, U GOT BLACK BLOOD IN YOU AND BE PROUD!

    9/4/2004 2:45:35 AM

  8. Hi, I am Zachary. I was reading the messages on this website. I myself am half Italian (proud of it by the way). I consider Italians, and Sicilians the same thing. So, if I say Italians, I am also reffering to Sicilians.
    I don’t know if anyone will agree, or disagree. But, this is my opinion. I had no idea that there were these many multiethnic comments, and topics, and all kinds of things about Italians. I also think it’s kind of rediculous. But, here are my opinions about Italians.

    The truth is, a very big majority of Italians have darker eyes, darker hair, and darker skin than most other white people. And, believe me I have several black people ask me if I am black. But, because, I don’t really look black I say no. I look more Puerto Rican than anything. My mother is 100% Italian.

    And, my mother does look like a medium skinned African American. If you didn’t know my mom, you would think she was half black. At least right now. Because, in the winter she gets slightly lighter in skin. But, that kind of stuff is really typical of all Italians.

    Because Sicily is just right south of Italy, Sicily has always been like a crossroad althroughtout history for foriegn people to come into Italy. And many Aricans, Arabs, and Greeks did come into both Italy, and Sicily to make thier own dwellings. And, that is highly evident in Sicily’s physical features. There are so many locations in Sicily that have so many left behind influences of multicultural traces. And, the Sicilian dialect of Italian itself has slight traces of Arab in it.

    I’d say Italians have a mix of mainly African, and Greek. While Sicilians have a mix of both of those plus Arab. There might be slight traces of Arab blood on Italian DNA. But, I am not sure. Now, I saw an article that said Italians have Spanish blood.

    I’ve never ever heard of that before. That sounds very unlikely. But, I do believe Italians do have African in them. And, as a half Italian kid, I myself have never taken on a full “white” identity. There is a French kid in my class.

    In the summer time, I look nearly 3 times darker than him. Now, in the summer time, I do burn because I am only half Italian. But, I only burn once. After that, it’s all stricktly tanning for me. I have other “Caucasion” frineds who either burn half the summer time, or never tan at all.

    Also, I have very dark, and very bushy eyebrows. My eyebrows are probably just slightly thinner than Saddam Huseins eyebrows. And, if I don’t do anything, I’ll also grow a unibrow. Now, you all are probably thinking what does this have to do with the topic. Well, this is why I brought it up.

    If you study males closely, 95% of the men worldwide who tend to have bushy eyebrows, and grow unibrows are Latin American, and middle eastern men (no specific for Latin American men, but of the middle eastern men Arabian, Arabic, Jewish, ETC). They are the main men who tend to have bushy eyebrows, and grow unibrows. Most of them are all non-white. And, noone can say I am wrong. Because, it’s obvious.

    Well, if I am all white, expalin to me why I have bushy eyebrows, and grow a unibrow? It isn’t because I am German, or French, or Dutch, or English. Italian is the only thing I have in me that the country lies that close to Africa, and the middle east. If you could see me, I think I am 25% good enough proof that Italians do in fact have both African, and middle eastern ancestry in them. So, in conclusion, everything I’ve studied in the past…

    And, all the stuff I’ve read, and all the different opinions of people… I would say that it is a fact to say that most, or all Italians are only 25, to 50% white. Because, for us Italians… we do have features, and characteristics in us, and in our blood, and DNA that make us well separated from ever being fully white.

    9/5/2004 4:21:09 PM

  9. I’m with Zachary for the most part. Most Italians are well-known for their thick dark hair & variety of skin tones. Actress Sophia Loren comes to mind, with her Roman nose & olive skin. Madonna is Italian, but has been bleaching her hair ever since “Blonde Ambition.” Jenna Jameson is Italian, with naturally mousy hair that’s bleached blonde. Christina Ricci is Italian, as are Monica Bellucci & Annabella Sciorra (she was in that movie “Jungle Fever.”) These women vary in looks, but they are all Italian.

    Zachary is also very correct in saying that most Italians have darker hair & eyes than other Europeans. It’s a Mediterranean look. Italians are not completely white, although a few look more European, as I said before. There are variations among ALL groups of people. That’s the reason there are high-yellow, caramel, redbone, blue-black people of African origin. That’s the reason that not every white person has blonde hair or blue/green eyes, there are many full-blooded whites with dark hair & eyes, particularly in predominantly white states like Maine or Vermont, where there is almost NO racial mixing of any kind. To “Black Man”, although I agree with some of what you’re saying, I don’t completely understand.

    I’m sure that there are Italians who are unaware of any African blood in their ancestry…maybe that’s why they don’t “admit” it? Of course, this isn’t always the case, but it does happen. As I said above, it is possible to have dark hair & dark eyes and still have no black heritage whatsoever. It’s not something we normally associate with white people, but not all white people are blond with light eyes. I’m neither Sicilian nor Italian, but I’ve known many of them & their looks were quite varied. There are black Italians, brown Italians, fair Italians. Some were clearly mixed, others were definitely not. Some people acknowledge their “roots” if they are in fact mixed with something & they should! I agree that people should accept whatever they’re mixed with. However, not everyone feels that way about it. Racial identity is something that people in the United States are PC about, & it’s a touchy subject for many, understandably. If somebody admits to having had a black ancestor, okay. And if they don’t, that’s okay too. It’s their business & they have their reasons, although it seems deceptive. And as a mixed woman who looks 100% White, I can tell you this: I have met black people in denial who love to boast about their so-called white mother or light-skinned family members, & then it turns out to be completely false. I know a few blacks who are very ashamed to be black. I don’t like it either, but it happens, & people have their reasons.

    “Dago” was an offensive term hurled at Italians in America until the mid-1960s. It was also heard in some parts of Europe & Australia. Do you know why Italians weren’t considered “white” in America for a while? Because their behavior was unconventional by American standards. They spoke their own language, prepared interesting dishes, & associated with blacks. Most of them were poor. The Italians I’ve seen in historical photos look completely European, but because they were friendly with blacks & didn’t speak the language of racist white America, they were shunned by other whites. You forget that even white folks have their own roots. I look at it this way, black people may be born in any part of the world, but their primary bloodline reaches back to Africa. A white person from Georgia or Florida or Anywhere, USA almost certainly had ancestors come over on the Mayflower from England or they have roots in Germany, Ireland, Scotland, the UK, Sweden, Denmark, or the Soviet Union. Whew…I apologize for my long post, but I just thought I’d offer my perspectives on this interesting topic. We’re all human, any way you look at it! *smile*

    9/5/2004 20:20

  10. Italy, and Sicily both sit in the Mediterranean sea. Like I said: Sicily because of where it is located, has always been like a crossroad for Africa, and the middle east all through history. And, many exploerers, travelers, and invaders came in and occupied both countries for many years. And, they settled down in the two lands. And, with settling in other countries comes mixing with the natives of the land.
    And, the fact is, most Italians not only because of Italy’s location. But, also because of invasion, Italians do have darker hair, darker eyes, and darker skin. (due to a mixing of blood in thier DNA). The main reasons why Italians have dark skin, eyes, and hair is because of Italy’s location, and because of the mixing of blood they have. And, also… I never said bushy eyebrows are found in African DNA.

    Nor did I say that other Europeans didn’t have bushy eyebrows. My exact words were “It’s mainly Latin American, and middle eastern men that have bushy eyebrows”. Yes, there are other races, and ethnicities in this word with bushy eyebrows. But, it’s most commonly found in those men. And, about the black issue. That’s true.

    In the summer, I do get dark enough to be mistaken for either a light skinned black, or a Puerto Rican. Now, my mother whom is 100% Italian really does look black. Her hair is what makes her look more Arab than anything, though. Since I don’t know how to spell her real name. For those of you who saw The GodFather, my mother’s hair looks like Connie’s hair. And, for those who saw The GodFather part 3.

    In the third sequal, let’s be honest, Connie didn’t look anything white. She looked like she was right from Saudi Arabia. She had dark, dark hair with blue reflections in it, a dark olive skin color, and she dressed like a Muslim, always putting that little robe over her head, and face. For those of you who saw the GofFather part 3, you’ll know what I am talking about.

    But, this is not a movie conversation. That’s just the closest thing I can compare my mother’s physical features to. So, in conclusion, I think I can truthfully say I do know what I am talking about. Now, who agrees, and who disagrees?

    9/6/2004 2:26:49 PM

  11. i know this is off the subject butPUNCH JUDY:
    AUGUST 31 COMMENT you said there is no such thing called a white latino. So is there a such thing called a black latino? Pele’ the soccer player from brazil know he is latino, but will be quick to tell u how pride he is to be a black man. by the way look up argentina history. u’ll find WHITE people living there blonde hair, blue eyes. yeah they came from germany and settle there in the 1800’s but they white. having they on communities. and nooo i never been to argentina but my spanish teacher from h/s told me this. and yes she’s white. And thats true some puerto rican and cubans claim to be white. cuz they are “white-latinos”. I give u an example Ricky Martin the singer is a white-latino. In the United States he’ll be a “latino”. but in puerto rico he’ll be a “white latino”. That one singer Shakira i don’t know if u know her but she is a pop singer from columbia. she will fall in the same category.

    9/6/2004 6:05:47 AM

  12. YOU KNOW WHAT. FOR WHITE PPL, BEING WHITE IS IN THE EYE OF THE U.S. HOW LIGHT ARE U UNTIL U ARE CONSIDER WHITE? AND HOW DARK ARE U UNTIL U ARE CONSIDER BLACK? AND WHAT IF U ARE IN THE MIDDLE? DO U PASS FOR ONE AND FORGET ABOUT THE OTHER? I’M A BLACK MAN AND I ALWAYS WONDER ABOUT ITALIANS AND OTHER “WHITE” MEDITERRENEAN PEOPLE. IN THE UNITED STATES, WE ARE REALLY BIG ON RACE AND WHERE U COME FROM. AND SINCE ITALIANS ARE IN EUROPE AND NOT BLACK, THEY GONNA BE CONSIDER WHITE IN AMERICA, DON’T MATTER HOW “DARK WHITE” THEY LOOK. UNLESS SOMEBODY MAKE UP A NEW RACE CALLED, MEDITERRENEAN. AND THAT WILL STILL CONFUSE PEOPLE

    AND ANYWAY, ALL PEOPLE COME FROM AFRICA! RIGHT? SO I GUESS TO END IT ALL, WE ALL GOT AFRICAN IN US.

    9/7/2004 4:59:46 PM

  13. This post is in regards to a comment made by Mike, re: a previous post of mine.. Below is what he said, critiquing my post, with my rebuttal. Enjoy.
    ::: AUDRA DI FALCO SAID: “I am 100% Sicilian and people always come up to me asking me if I’m Arabic!”

    No they don’t. Stop lying.

    First of all, people don’t just come up to other people in the street and ask them if they’re a certain ethnicity. That’s lie number one.

    Second of all, you might get asked if you’re Hispanic or Jewish, or something else that’s common and often looks Southern European, but not Arabic. That’s lie number two.

    I might buy the “talking to you in other languages” part, if you were in some foreign country at the time, and really tanned because it was summer. But even that seems far fetched.

    Who do you think you’re kidding?

    ::: First off, let me say hello to Mike. Hi, Mike. I live in New York City, where it is possible to be approached by any number of people at any time of day! I have had MANY, MANY people approach me and ask me if I was Arabic. As a matter of fact, when I was in the Dominican Republic, the Dominican waiter asked me if I was Puerto Rican. You and I both know every ethnic group has no one set ‘look’, but nevertheless, I am always asked if I am of a certain ethnic group, whether it be Dominican, Indian, Puerto Rican, Arabic, etc.

    Second off, living in New York, it is possible to be spoken to in a foreign language at any time of day! I pity you. You must live in a sheltered little town where everyone speaks English. Of course, the notion of speaking a foreign language in America is alien to you, my sheltered friend!

    Thirdly, being JEWISH has no set ‘look’. You can be an African Jew, and still be JEWISH. You can be an Asian Jew, a Polish Jew, a Russian Jew. Any ethnicity imaginable can be Jewish (it is a religion). I don’t know where you’re going with the Jewish comment because the person walking down the street with drealocks, dark skin and a knitted Jamaican cap can be Jewish. You might want to think before you insult someone like me who has the goods to back up what I say.

    I know what I know. I know that I am of absolute Sicilian descent on both sides of my family. I know that I am dark skinned. I know that Sicily has been conquered again and again over the course of history. How is it you are all saying we aren’t African, Spanish, Greek, Arabic, among others (Norman, Lombard, etc)? You would have to be a fool to deny the blood rushing through your veins from all the people who have conquered our island. How could it be these people came to our land and left without breeding with the Sicilians who were already there? It’s impossible. You’re all a beautiful mixture of many cultures. Learn to live with it. Love it. You can be the fairest of the fair or the darkest of the dark, but you can still be Sicilian. Different families have different ancestry. I have good reason to believe my families are of Moorish and Arabic descent, but I know of Sicilians who look like they could have been Normans or Lombards. Accept it.

    I don’t appreciate Mike’s smug comments at all. And I would like an apology. How rude of him to come on here and accuse me of lying.. when I know what I know about myself and the people who interact with me!

    Bless you all.

    9/11/2004 11:21:06 PM

  14. People ask me if im morrocan, pr, or mid eastern lots of times! yet im full blooded southern catanian! 1st generation american! i been poisting pics of very ambiguos south italians and sicilians for a very long time! and oh greco-roman thats rm medhammer he thinks basques and sicilians are the same race! when infact basques are more purely european then sicilians! sicilians are mixed greek, arab, moorish berber, some african, some norman lombard, sicani, siculy, and elymi! some sicilians look whiter then others and others look more ambiguos to non white then others! we are mixed period! i dont consider myself white i look totally differnt from white people(north and central europeans) Ciao

    9/12/2004 12:48:47 AM

  15. audra.. mike doesnt known shit! and neither does beppe and greco-roman! to me you are a beautiful saracenic arab godess! una faza una raza

    9/12/2004 12:54:03 AM

  16. I never said it was my natural coloring. A tan that dark isn’t my natural coloring (but it is for my brother, mom and dad) No need for personal attacks, Greco-Roman. All I’m saying is, even without a tan, I am darker than most ‘White’ people I know.
    And as a matter of fact, the Arabs were CELEBRATED in Sicily. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sicilian_language
    They brought with them artistic freedom, architecture, new foods, and a ‘progressive’ way of thinking.
    See for yourself. About ‘breeding’ with people that are scared of you, take a look at the American old west. Many, many people are of Native American and ‘white’ descent because of this.

    If I’m not mistaken, didn’t I see you on the Giusepoli forum, and weren’t you nice to me? Where did we go wrong? People get so heated over this topic.. it’s crazy. I don’t want to start any fights. We’re all human and we should all act civil towards one another, but some of you just need to cool it with the personal attacks on here!

    When I look in the mirror, I can see that there is NO way I have no Arabic or Moor in me.

    And about the reason I believe I am of that descent is because generations and generations ago, my mother’s family were the Arabs that came to Sicily. Gee, now you seem kind of taken back, don’t you? And my last name, DI FALCO, is Spanish in origin… YET I am Sicilian. Weren’t the Spaniards in Sicily? Look up my last name. Think about it.

    9/12/2004 9:00:26 AM

  17. Greco-Roman,
    Let’s just end this. I am not like Morello. He may be a nice guy (to me), but he can get annoying sometimes. This thread has gone down the drain because of stupid, insipid bickering like this which goes back and forth.

    You may not agree with me, but this is how I feel. I think that, in this day and age, NO ONE is of a ‘pure’ race anymore, so this fight is just stupid. It still boggles my mind how you would ever be able to explain Sicily being occupied by various people for thousands upon thousands of years, yet the population remiained ‘pure’. Nevertheless, I’ll say it again: I don’t think in this day and age, that anyone is of ‘pure’ blood, however politically incorrect it may be. We are all human. We should celebrate our differences, not argue over them. You have your beliefs and I have mine, and that’s that. Truce.

    PS- Don’t compare me to Morello. He and I are NOTHING alike.

    9/13/2004 7:39:35 PM

  18. I always thought Moors were ‘black’….? At leat that’s what books tell you! Weren’t Moors African slaves to the Spaniards at one time?

    9/17/2004 4:16:36 PM

  19. Well all of you im a Saudi Arabian and i am WHITE. I have been all over america and have had prejudice from Negroes and mexicans calling me Honky and trailer trash, and if i should hate anyone its blacks and Latinos! Im not Blonde but Blondes are not more white than Dark haireds!!! Caucasians are whites,like blacks are negroes. Dont confuse Celtic and germanic types for whites, hair eye and skin tone have nothing to do with being white. Blacks like to try and divide the white race because they hate british americans for enslaving them! When we arabs were the first to enslave and free Blacks. This is why you can see many chocolate brown arabs, because of race mixing!!!! Do pasty mongolians say oh! were really oriental and thai people are not oriental because theyre chocolate brown!!!! Modern I talians are as mixed as any nationality. I England youll find celtic looking people, Nordic looking people anglo-saxon looking people, but theyre all caucasian. If you see a guy thats chocolate colored hes not an arab, hes mixed!!! In Saudi my country we have been bastardized by east african imigrants and now my country is 50% black and mongrelized!!! Because Islam teaches racial tollerance its ruining the indigenous middle eastern people. We will always call ourselves WHITE WE dont care what some celtic or anglo-saxon says!!! Shannon Elizabeth is of arabic origin is she negroe? I dont think so!!! Oh and by the way north africans do not look the same as east mediterranean arabs because theyre blood lines are french, spanish, berber, and alot of east african negroes(conscripts during the moorish invasions). And by the way do you know the prophet Mohammed had red hair and light skin!!!!!! We are not Negroes ever!! And also Im sick of seeing some Paki or Hindi Chocolate colored asian playing an arabic man in movies. I am comfortable in france spain portugal yugoslavia, romania…… Only pasty northwestern europeans will ask if im french or swiss or hungarian etc…When in France i met some morrocan guys and they asked where i was from i spoke back to them in arabic, and the idiots said how do you know arabic. I answered firmly because i am arabic not a mongrelized person like you! 100 years from now do you think they wont be lots of mongrels on the usa?!!! Its already started!! Oh and by the way i bet that guys physician was a paki not an arab!! The arabic world is 22 countries do you honestly think were all the same race or ethnic background? Sudan is an arabic country but theyre all negroes, as black as soot! President Assad of Syria is White! Sheik Jaber of kuwait is White! Primeminister Ayad of Iraq is White! Queen Rania of Jordon would be called a cracker if she walked down Harlem!!!! The Fact is The True Arabs from the Near and middle east have had Black slave for centuries!!! Did you think when they were freed they all went bcak to africa? NO!! THEY Dam STAYED And BRED! Oh and an olive or fair or ruddy complexion does not make a caucasian more or less white!!!!! Look up the word caucasian in a dictionary it include siberians, eurasian, and middle easterners, not just europeans, otherwise tennis star sharapova wouldnt be white!!!
    And the “arabs” that were in sicily were libyans who look different from middle easterners cos thay have nappy hair and wide noses check out Colonel Gadafi.
    Italians are originaly romans, slavs, germanics and gallic peoples, italy is of modern day borders. They are all WHITE!
    Bottom line Buy an encyclopedia and a dictionary cos i can spot a negroe, mongrel, or a north african from 200 metres in my country!

    9/19/2004 6:05:42 AM

  20. Yes WhiteArab,
    I am from Jordan, and i am blonde, blue eyed, light skinned, slightly swarthy. And i am sick of poeple refeering to arabs like theyre not caucasian they obviously have never travelled to the middle east cos they seem to think were black or something, when we look like and mediterranean type.
    I went to america on holiday last year and they were shocked when i said i was arabic, many think we look like south asian indians or some think were negroes. Dont they understand that we have lots of negroes living in the middle east?
    You only have to look at the face of the sphinx in egypt to know weve always been caucasian.
    I went on holiday to hong kong and some people called me a gwei lo which aparently means old ghost? (white man)
    When i was in america i watched this show called MONK, a detective in chicago i think and he was played by an arabic-american Tony Shalhoub. He was playing an english-American!
    I wonder if people know that bin laden is part negro or do they think hes an original arab?
    Or that generally arabs dont wear turbans its eurasians like afghans and indians that wear them. He wears one because he was kicked out of arabia and wears what the afghans wear now. Ive been to europe also and they consider me white because thats what i am!!!!!

    9/21/2004 4:07:35 AM

  21. Hi All,
    Im an englishman and i have dark brown hair and eyes as a large number of north euros do. I am an anthropology major and it may be a suprise but the white race does not really exist. There are only 5 racial groups and under that there are ethnic subgroups. They are caucasoid, negroid, australasoid, americanoid, and mongoloid. Each group has variances in skin tone, negroids vary from light brown to deep blackish brown, mongoloids vary from pasty snow white to chocolate brown, and similarly caucasians vary from pasty ruddy to very swarthy, etc..
    There are variances in hair and eyes tones amongst all racial types innuit indians and mongolians have been know to possess very light blue-brown eyes, whilst possessing no racial admixture, and merely melanin adaptations to climate. Darker skins will gradually fade lighter in darker climates and lighter skin will darken over time in warmer climates.
    Ultimately it is inaccurate to determine an ethnic background on skin tone alone. Autopsys in the past have resulted in false assumptions like in the IRA kennedy case where a man was ethnically selected as spanish but was actually an irish man, therefore the only definative way was to use facial structure and skull structure to make accurate conclusions. It is a common mistake that people associate curly or even wavy hair with negroid blood traits, however it has no bearing on whether someone is caucasian or otherwise. Facts my fellow posters will always triumph, racial propaganda is prevalent in history, from the creation of a jewish race to north africans claiming to be of arabic descent to mexicans claiming to be of iberian spanish origin. Lies and propaganda perpetuated throughout the ages will never count for scientific fact. That is why most governments are learning that all caucasians can be considered white and that all negroids can be considered black.

    Conclusion and Definitive outcome;

    Main Entry: Cau·ca·sian
    Pronunciation: ‘ko-‘kA-zh&n, -‘kazh-&n
    Function: adjective
    1 : of or relating to the white race of humankind as classified according to physical features
    2 : of or relating to the white race as defined by law specifically as composed of persons of European, No. African, or southwest Asian ancestry —Caucasian noun

    Source: Merriam-Webster Medical Dictionary, © 2002 Merriam-Webster, Inc.

    Ne·groid ( P ) Pronunciation Key (ngroid) Anthropology
    adj.
    Of or being a major human racial classification traditionally distinguished by physical characteristics such as brown to black pigmentation and often tightly curled hair and including peoples indigenous to sub-Saharan Africa.

    source:The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
    Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
    Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

    Mon·gol·oid ( P ) Pronunciation Key (mngg-loid, mn-)
    adj.
    Anthropology. Of or being a major human racial classification traditionally distinguished by physical characteristics such as yellowish-brown skin pigmentation, straight black hair, dark eyes with pronounced epicanthic folds, and prominent cheekbones and including peoples indigenous to central and eastern Asia.

    Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
    Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
    Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

    Aus·tra·loid ( P ) Pronunciation Key (ôstr-loid)
    adj. Anthropology
    Of or being a human racial classification traditionally distinguished by physical characteristics such as dark skin and dark curly hair, and including the Aboriginal peoples of Australia along with various peoples of southeast Asia, especially Melanesia and the Malay Archipelago.

    Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
    Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
    Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

    Native American Or Ameri.can.oid
    n.
    A member of any of the indigenous peoples of the Western Hemisphere.

    Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
    Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
    Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

    FACT, not Falsehood.

    9/23/2004 3:30:16 PM

  22. I meant what you have just said, that trying to create defined sub-groups of any kind of caucasian is and always will be flawed. Saying that all spaniards are swarthy is flawed, saying that all russian slavs have larger heads and cheekbones is flawed, saying that all arabs are dark haired is flawed. Autopsys currently do not use skin eye and hair tone to determine ethnicity as it is flawed. They only use one of the five proven racial classifications. Also some of the posts are highly misinformed or extremely ignorant, on modern day ‘arabs’ and ‘hispanics’, neither of which are considered as races or ethnicities to a large extent, but culturally, historically, and linguistically linked. Spaniards are from iberia and has been indigenously populated by caucasians, in the same way arabs are from the eastern mediterranean (specifically northern arabia and parts of the southern fertile crescent. The arabs were originally and still are caucasian. However with both of these cultures embarking historically on conquest their language, culture, and religious views were imposed on the conquered populations. Even taking into acount rapes and intermarrige the existing populations were largely unchanged and in caucasian cultures the changes were unnoticable. Recent tests of morrocans show that less than 10% of the populace share ethnic traits with the original eastern arabs, but show predominantly berber, vandal, and abyssinian (a negroid sub group). Likewise tests of mexican have showed little similarity between their historical Spanish conquerers. Historical research supports genetic testing in that invading armies of spaniards numbering a few thousand and arabic armies number a few thousand supported by large numbers of abyssinian conscripts (enslaved or converts to islam).
    A great resource ive found on histories influences on race, culture, and etnicitiy can be found at http://www.whitehistory.com. I provides alot of supporting data, which is very improtant when making accurate assessments.

    9/25/2004 11:27:27 AM

  23. Thomas,
    I am sorry ive made a mistake it seems as though that url is being used by the stormfront now, but was used by a post grad i met in London. It was a very good site before with lots of academic research. Please accept my apologies for this error and i meant no insult to you or anyone in this archive.
    Oh by the way for anyone whos interested there are many examples of negro-caucasian mixes in almost every nation in europe, middle east, and north africa. Larger numbers in the nothern european nations now too and growing. Check out Soccer star Henrik Larsson a fair haired swedish-nigerian cross.

    9/27/2004 8:56:48 PM

  24. To Stephania,
    Hi,

    Just to clarify that Lebanese are arabic, but they also have phoenician ancestory too.
    In addition you made a very good point about many asking if you are of various ethnicities, but the main line of these assessments are of various types of caucasians. I myself as an englishman have been asked in the past whilst on my travels if im italian, french, hungarian, swiss, arabic, portugese, croatian, etc..
    And im an englishman with a traceable anglo-saxon line.
    On the flip side if a negroid person went to sub saharan african countries they might be asked if theyre ugandan, sudanese, cameroon, zulu, swazi, etc…
    Bottom line, in the current climate of globalisation humans are finding it necessary to group and sub group each other under the assumption that people will behave or look stereotypically.

    10/2/2004 8:44:47 PM

  25. Consoli,
    Please do not show prejudice and contempt to my background as i do not show it to yours. I have come to sites like this because it is my area of study. And as a neutral person who is learning fact based information, as oposed to hear say, propaganda and random people’s poor ethnic assessments.
    Sites such as these show a clearly misinformed and uneducated understanding of history and background. If a person says someone looks negro, it doesnt mean they are negro. It is the person that is mistaken, not facts that are mistaken.
    If ten people say ‘oh this guy i met looks chinese’, but the guy is actually from Peru, does it make him chinese?
    Finally you have not understood that arabic blood lines actually refer to people from the nothern arabian peninsula and the southern fertile cresent. Where sicily was invaded by north africans. North africans who had become arabic speaking because of conversion to the islamic faith. Because of this, modern day north africans possess a dialect and culture distint from their original arabian conquerers. So when you say you may have arabic blood lines you are incorrect, it would be berber and/or vandal or east african abyssinian traits.
    You must understand that conquest doesnt mean anhilating the indigenous people or marrying each one of them, it is a central governmental power as opposed to a racial one. Most conquests number only a few thousand soldiers not a mass exodus of people to a new land. Think about it there were no cruise liners or passenger airlines or airports. Most people move for a reason, soldiers go for power, but civilians dont move for no reason. Please read some history books.

    10/3/2004 10:21:47 PM

  26. Below I have included two links, showing the typical difference between an arabic north african, and an original eastern arab;
    This link is a picture of maroccan soccer star Hadji, you will be able to see he does not entirely possess caucasian traits. And may somewhat resemble some sicilians. As it was north africans that invaded sicily, and is in close proximity.

    http://soccermania.dk/eng-aston/aston_Moustapha%20Hadji.jpg

    This next link shows president Assad of syria (typical of an eastern Arab), you will notice his traits are distinctly different from a north african, possessing clearly identifiable caucasian traits.

    http://www.worldpress.org/images/100703assad.jpg

    This fact is probably why ive seen many posts by eastern arabs complaining at being associated with north africans. The difference is clear to anyone that has travelled.

    10/3/2004 10:54:44 PM

  27. Like wise the same mistake is made when refering to people as ‘hispanics’. The following two links show the typical difference between the original iberian spanish person, and a latin american mexican.
    This link shows prsident zapatero of spain, clear identifiable caucasian traits.

    http://telva.elmundo.es/especiales/2002/07/espana/debate/images/zapatero01.jpg

    This link shows a mexican woman, clear identifiable americanoid traits, or aztec more specifically.

    http://www.msu.edu/~kalinow5/gallery1/images/mexican-woman.jpg

    Conquest doesnt always result in replacement or mongrelising of the indigenous peoples.

    10/3/2004 11:10:19 PM

  28. I am Sicilian, who claims and excepts everything that I am mixed with. I myself, have medium brown skin, and black curly hair, just like the rest of my family. I do not consider myself white, and PROUD to say that. I am educated to the fullest about my ancestory and where I come from. Also, anyone who denies the BEAUTIFUL AFRICAN, and ARABIC culture that defines the Siciian/Southern Italian people should be ashamed! It just goes to show how IGNORANT people can be when it comes to race.

    11/29/2004 2:29:44 AM

  29. hi everyone, well ive never seen a sicilian that didnt look white. I do believe that they may have 1% or 2% mixed. Ive seen sicilians of ALL coloring. My friend has blonde hair,tan, and blue eyes. My other one has bright carroty red hair green eyes and pale(strangely though, no freckles). They are both 100% scicilian, both of friends’ parents immigrated from sicily. Then again there are also brown eyed black haired sicilians like my english profesor. They are definitely one of the most diverse group of people when it comes to looks. I also get mistaken when it comes to my identity, Im a 50% albanian(dad) & 50% nigerian(mother) but everyone thinks im irish or scottish because i’ve got reddish brown hair,relatively fair, with freckles, and blue-green eyes. Then again like italians, albanians vary in looks because where im from(detroit) nearly all albanians are from montenegro and they can be very dark(hair,eyes,skin) whick i think may be due to mixing with the serbs,possibly gypsies,etc. unlike albanians from albania or kosova where they are very pale and hair/eye color varies. The same goes for blacks, they come in all shades including high yella, red bone, chocolate brown(my mom =)), light brown, and even blue-black. one more thing,I do agree with the post above because I hear all these whites saying that im lucky because i got all the caucasian feature, in my opinion i wouldve rather gotten at least some more of the african features. I dont think its right that whites make themselves more superior to other races. The funniest thing is when WNs try and explain why many other races are smarter than them or how the only reasons many blacks are smart is because of white admixture which is complete BS. WNs also think that men of other races want their women.Take a look at history, white men were known for raping their black slaves or raped native american women.they try and make it sound like blacks are trying to look like them, such as whitening products but take a look at what whites are trying to do to achieve their features such as tanning, lip injection, butt implants, perms,etc. but overall were all human and we should all be treated this way.

    2/5/2005 1:45:51 PM

  30. Both my parents are Italian and I am proud of my heritage, but for every one wondering if we have someAfican in us the answer is yes we have but not just Italians, but every other nationality as well!
    You see man first evolved in Africa about 400 million years ago, they were called “Homo Sapiens” and they
    were the first thinking man that evolved from the ‘Homo erectus’ which were the first upright man, any other human like species before are not direct ancestors of modern humans. ‘Homo Sapiens’ fgssils have been found in Europe and Western As
    and Western Asia. About 100,000 years ago a newer type of human the ‘Homo Sapiens Sapiens’ developed in
    Africa and spread to other continents.

    8/19/2005 9:51:53 AM

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